This card previously listed the hypothalamus and thalamus individually but they were removed earlier this week because the limbic system contains the hypothalamus and thalamus so it appeared redundant to list them.
Kaplan chooses to list the hypothalamus and thalamus separately in addition to the limbic system because they are creating a table for structures included in the forebrain and their corresponding function. The hypothalamus and thalamus have functions outside of those typically associated with the limbic system.
The complication is that the limbic system is a functional grouping but also of course contains anatomical structures. The purpose of this card is to test the structures within the forebrain so the structures contained within the limbic system would, by extension, be included in the forebrain.
The forebrain contains the telencephalon and diencephalon. The telencephalon becomes the cerebrum so you are technically correct that the forebrain contains the cerebral hemispheres however this would be redundant because the basal ganglia, cerebral cortex, and elements of the limbic system are within the cerebral hemispheres.
@Brian_BH any additional thoughts on listing the thalamus and hypothalamus separately. It is kind of a complicated issue.
I think you captured it well. IIRC we double-checked Kaplan and UWorld and both list the thalamus and hypothalamus as being part of the forebrain, which makes the inclusion of all the rest a bit redundant.
For sure since we just changed the card, Iām reticent to go backward unless there is some hugely compelling rationale.
That being said, maybe this confusion is a strong argument for including a note in the Extra section to the effect of 'the forebrain includes the X, Y, and Z" for complete clarity.
In a perfect world, another picture might also help since this one says āForebrain (cerebrum)ā which isnāt helping the case at all:
That makes sense to me. I think the card is good as is in the text section.
For the extra section:
I guess my only concern (which is probably way overthinking) is if someone took from this card that the hypothalamus and thalamus only function in the forebrain within their role in the limbic system.
I wonder if something like:
The thalamus and hypothalamus also function independently outside the limbic system framework in the forebrain.
would be useful. This kind of makes it clear that we are suggesting that the limbic system is a functional grouping of brain structures, which encompasses specific anatomical structures which act within their limbic system function but also independently within the forebrain.
Iāll see if I can find a better image.
For sure I think we should mention that the thalamus, etc., are considered part of the forebrain.
Iām not sure if we need to specify the location of its functioning. Not that Iām inherently against it; Iām open to the idea.
Though I wonder how fuzzy that gets at a certain point (i.e. is it the case that many parts of the brain have projections to other parts of the brain and, thus, are not entirely relegated to localized functioning? Iām fairly certain thatās the case for a number of parts of the brain; all that cross-talk).
Or, maybe to drive home a silly comparison: the thymus sure is in the middle of the chest but very clearly has effects all over the body. Or the heart, or the kidneys, or any endocrine organ. But that wouldnāt prevent categorization of, say, stating that the kidney is part of the peritoneal cavity (or whatever).
Thought about it some more and the only way I can really describe what Iām thinking is through an example (you might have already fully picked up on what Iām trying to say here but I just thought Iād rephrase for maximum clarity - partly to organize my own thoughts)
Contains some material beyond MCAT but just for the purpose of illustrating what Iām saying.
Card states forebrain contains the limbic system:
The limbic system is a functional grouping that refers to a set of interconnected structures (including the hypothalamus, amygdala, hippocampus, thalamus) involved in regulating emotions and memory.
However, the thalamus (for example) has a more extensive role beyond its limbic contributions and only certain components of the thalamus are involved in the āclassicalā limbic system. For example, the thalamus contains limbic-associated nuclei (anterior and dorsomedial) and non-limbic nuclei (such as the Ventral Anterior and Ventral Lateral Nuclei which are involved in motor control, receiving inputs from the basal ganglia and cerebellum and projecting to motor areas of the cortex)
My concern is that by saying the forebrain contains the limbic system (without separately mentioning the thalamus and hypothalamus) are we potentially suggesting that the forebrain only contains the elements of the anatomical structures and their related functions specifically associated with the limbic system rather than what we intend: the entire hypothalamus, thalamus and their functions? This may explain why Kaplan listed the thalamus and hypothalamus separately from the limbic system which is seemingly redundant: They list functions for these structures outside of whatās traditionally associated with the limbic system.
So by saying in the extra section:
The thalamus and hypothalamus also function independently outside the limbic system framework in the forebrain.
do we solve this issue since it suggests that we are using the limbic system as both a functional grouping and a broader anatomical grouping that encompasses not just the components and functions of the thalamus and hypothalamus specifically associated with the limbic system but the entirety of these structures.
Or do we potentially revert? circumventing this issue entirely but leaving some people thinking that the clozes are redundant.
Again, maybe overthinking.
Will respond more tomorrow after my interview, but my immediate thought is that I should have been more resistant to change the card in the first place.
One user has reached out with confusion, which means there are dozens, if not many dozens, more. Not to mention now paragraphs of consideration.
Thatās not to say that we did the wrong thing, necessarily. But this is a good example of a position we do not want to be in (creating confusion for users, and debating after-the-fact on what the best resolution is). Thatās my fault, but itās weighing on me now that it was an oversight.
Bottom line: user confusion bad. This level of nuance: maybe not possible (without likely creating further issues).
Atm Iām leaning toward reverting. A little redundancy that avoids confusion is harmless, ultimately. Need to be careful about editing existing text for 12,000-ish users for this reason.
Itās possible that Iām reading too far into Kaplanās intentions. However, I still think the general logic in my above post makes sense.
That being said, in terms of user confusion - In their discussion of the limbic system, Khan academy, Kaplan, and UWorld just say the limbic system contains the hypothalamus and thalamus (as well as our card on the limbic system in the deck)- they donāt list the relevant thalamic nuclei or elements of the hypothalamus - implying the whole of these structures are part of the limbic system.
By extension:
If the limbic system contains the hypothalamus and thalamus and the forebrain contains the limbic system then the forebrain contains the hypothalamus and thalamus.
The new card should not actually create any confusion based on the definitions provided by the primary mcat materials and the card for the limbic system we currently have in the deck. I think the case here was more seeing that the thalamus and hypothalamus are no longer individually listed and not recalling the limbic system contains these structures - not the potential confusion we are discussing.
This debate is more about being extremely careful to preserve the idea that the limbic system is a functional grouping with specific anatomical components that can be part of larger structures such as the thalamus and hypothalamus while the forebrain is an anatomical grouping that contains the whole of these structures and functions. We are actually going above and beyond the care taken by the primary mcat materials to avoid suggesting something that is incorrect.
In my opinion, really the most accurate version of this card (though less elegant) is:
Text:
The {{c1::forebrain::division of brain}} includes the {{c2::basal ganglia}}, {{c2::hippocampus}}, {{c2::hypothalamus}},{{c2::amygdala}}, {{c2::thalamus}}, {{c2::septal nuclei}}, and the {{c2::cerebral cortex}}.
Extra section:
The limbic system is within the forebrain.
Here, the forebrain is treated entirely in terms of its anatomical components. If the whole hippocampus, hypothalamus, amygdala, thalamus, and septal nuclei are included in the forebrain as suggested by this new version, then it is apparent that the limbic system (which contains elements of these structures) is contained in the forebrain.
The card in the deck currently for the limbic system:
Good luck on your interview!
True, though again this can be said to be true for multiple parts of the brain and this level of nuance is A: maybe best-suited for a textbook (potentially a philosophical textbook), B: not necessarily testable for the MCAT, C: not necessarily suitable, or easily conveyed, in a flashcard.
TL; DR: this card is not meant to, nor do I think it is suited to, discriminating between functional and categorical groupings of brain regions.
Yep, as above: I think one potential solution here is leave as-is and make a note in the Extra field stating the structures contained in the limbic system for clarity. Iām not entirely convinced thatās the best overall option here, though at this point weāve already got our hand in the cookie jar.
Anytime we change a living document, we run the risk of confusion. That is a baseline consideration for nearly all changes, categorically, even improvements.
Iām going to admit being somewhat skeptical of the idea of having moved this card from six cloze-2ās to three cloze-2ās, to now alter it to seven cloze-2ās (much less within the span of a couple of days). Thereās a bit too much whiplash, imo; ocean liner, not lamborghini.
Our options, as I see them currently, in order to resolve this card and minimize potential further consternation (for us, or users) are as follows:
- A. Revert the card, and use the Extra field to stipulate which of the involved structures are contained under the umbrella of the limbic system (or whatever other clarity we think might be helpful).
- B. Leave the card as is, and use the Extra field to stipulate which of the involved structures are contained under the umbrella of the limbic system (or whatever other clarity we think might be helpful).
I donāt know that weāre going to min-max our way to an exhaustive solution of every potential externality here. Nor, arguably, is that the design or intention of a flashcard in any event.
Neither is great, both make trade-offs.
In either, or both, cases, an appropriate image would likely do wonders to avoid confusion in these regards (triply so given the ongoing alterations to the card).
Will be on later after interviewwwww
Yeah, I honestly donāt know what to make of Kaplan choosing to separately list the thalamus and hypothalamus from the limbic system in that table. Just before this table Kaplan has:
āDuring prenatal development, the prosencephalon (forebrain) divides to form the telencephalon (which forms the cerebral cortex, basal ganglia, and limbic system) and the diencephalon (which forms the thalamus, hypothalamus, posterior pituitary gland, and pineal gland)ā
Maybe they are just drawing a distinction between Telencephalic limbic structures: Hippocampus, amygdala versus Diencephalic limbic structures: Thalamus, hypothalamus. Eitherway they donāt make it clear and this explanation is redundant based on their own description of what the limbic system contains.
āThe forebrain contains the thalamus, hypothalamus, basal ganglia, limbic system, and cerebral cortexā
Part of me kind of thinks Iām going off the deep end of technicalities and the card is fine as is. However, I wonder if the original redundant clozes are āsaferā because then nobody can make the same argument I did earlier.
I lean slightly toward reverting back to the original card, just because it dumbs it down a bit (which is maybe not as elegant, but arguably maybe a bit safer).
Either way, itās a bit of a mess owing to having multiple resources that arenāt entirely in lock-step (which will inevitably be the case in at least some scenarios for us).
Either way, a clarification in the Extra field might be a bit of insurance for us.
I do as well. Honestly neither option is a complete win just based on the approach the card is taking. Even with the original text, a person could make the same argument for the septal nuclei for example and say that by only listing the limbic system we are suggesting that only the components of the septal nuclei involved in the limbic system are part of the forebrain. However, we could at least point to Kaplan and say for whatever reason Kaplan seems to take a stand here and make an explicit differentiation between the limbic system as a functional grouping and components such as the hypothalamus and thalamus that act both within and outside the limbic system.
Too wordy currently but something like this is likely the most bulletproof option
Text:
Revert to original
Extra:
The limbic system is a functional grouping involved in regulating emotions and memory, comprising specific parts of the hippocampus, hypothalamus, amygdala, thalamus, and septal nuclei. In contrast, the forebrain encompasses these structures in their entirety, including their broader roles beyond their contributions to the limbic system.
^I think this is probably the biggest value add for the card regardless of what direction we take with the text section. Both options would work with an extra section like this. Wish I thought of it originally.
Hope your interview went well!
I do get the instinct, but I worry that weāre adding a paragraph to clarify a point that is unlikely to be tested on and runs as much risk of adding confusion as adding clarity.
In either case, the card is not about the function of the underlying structures, or anything; itās strictly a āforebrain; whatās in it??ā And, at the moment: weāve no evidence that anyone is confused or needs clarification as to the concept/s here.
I feel like weāre tying ourselves in knots a bit, on a mediocre card scraping for maybe inches.
It see what youāre saying. It could be as simple as:
The limbic system contains specific parts of the hippocampus, hypothalamus, amygdala, and thalamus, etc. In contrast, the forebrain encompasses the entirety of these structures.
It solves the question of why we are listing something seemingly redundant - which was my own initial instinct and the instinct of the other person who submitted the same suggestion.
Either way, I get your point. Definitely scraping for inches and went way deeper on the forebrain and limbic system than I wanted to when working on this card haha.
Believe me, these things drive me nuts as much as the next person (letās be real: more).
But, if we lose our hat at every single card weāll also never make volume headway (I say this not even having had time to look at suggestions today). Itās the classic āurgent displacing the importantā phenomenon (my old nemesis).
This is, in all likelihood, about what weāre looking at imo.
Not the first time, nor will it be the last time (for either of us). Iām, often, guilty of the same instinct/s. 
So are you thinking:
Text:
Revert
Extra:
The limbic system contains specific parts of the hippocampus, hypothalamus, amygdala, and thalamus, etc. In contrast, the forebrain encompasses the entirety of these structures.
I think this kind of covers all our bases. 1) We are in agreement with Kaplan 2) Someone whoās scratching their head wondering why the card is redundant will be way more likely to understand why with this extra section. 3) We protect ourselves from someone in the future making my argument from earlier āwell the limbic system only contains parts of these structures so actually this is wrong cause the forebrain contains the entirety of these structuresā
Yeah, for lack of any other Super Amazing solutions thatās about where I land.
In a world of infinite time and energy Iād keep flogging myself, but atm I think thatās the best juice-per-squeeze weāre likely to get atm.
Speaking of time: you still ready to start the basics of onboarding tomorrow?
Yes! Available whenever works best for you
Should I submit this card with the changes or do you want to.
If you have a spare sec; Iām technically still in an informational session (donāt tell the school)
Hahaha. Sounds good Iāll resubmit.